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there's a broader question here, right? As we build socially and emotionally intelligent machines,

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what does that mean about our relationship with them and then more broadly our relationship with

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one another, right? Because this machine is going to be programmed to be amazing at empathy,

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by definition, right? It's going to always be there for you. It's not going to get bored.

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I don't know how I feel about that. I think about that a lot.

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TITO The following is a conversation with Rana

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L. Kliubi, a pioneer in the field of emotion recognition and human centric artificial

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intelligence. She is the founder of Effectiva, deputy CEO of SmartEye, author of Girl Decoded,

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and one of the most brilliant, kind, inspiring, and fun human beings I've gotten the chance to

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talk to. This is the Lex Friedman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in

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the description. And now, dear friends, here's Rana L. Kliubi. You grew up in the Middle East,

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in Egypt. What is the memory from that time that makes you smile? Or maybe a memory that stands out

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as helping your mind take shape and helping you define yourself in this world?

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RANA L. KLIUBI So the memory that stands out is we used to

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live in my grandma's house. She used to have these mango trees in her garden. And in the summer,

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and so mango season was like July and August. And so in the summer, she would invite all my aunts

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and uncles and cousins. And it was just like maybe there were like 20 or 30 people in the house,

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and she would cook all this amazing food. And us, the kids, we would go down the garden,

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and we would pick all these mangoes. And I don't know, I think it's just the bringing people

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together that always stuck with me, the warmth. TITO Around the mango tree.

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RANA L. KLIUBI Yeah, around the mango tree. And there's just like the joy, the joy of being

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together around food. And I'm a terrible cook. So I guess that didn't, that memory didn't translate

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to me kind of doing the same. I love hosting people. TITO Do you remember colors, smells?

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Is that what, like what, how does memory work? Like what do you visualize? Do you visualize

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people's faces, smiles? Do you, is there colors? Is there like a theme to the colors? Is it smells

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because of food involved? RANA L. KLIUBI Yeah, I think that's a great question. So the,

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those Egyptian mangoes, there's a particular type that I love, and it's called Darwasi mangoes. And

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they're kind of, you know, they're oval, and they have a little red in them. So I kind of,

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they're red and mango colored on the outside. So I remember that. TITO Does red indicate like

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extra sweetness? Is that, is that, that means like it's nicely, yeah, it's nice and ripe and stuff.

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Yeah. What, what's like a definitive food of Egypt? You know, there's like these almost

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stereotypical foods in different parts of the world, like Ukraine invented borscht.

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Borscht is this beet soup with, that you put sour cream on. See, it's not, I can't see if you,

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if you know, if you know what it is, I think, you know, is delicious. But if I explain it,

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it's just not going to sound delicious. I feel like beet soup. This doesn't make any sense,

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but that's kind of, and you probably have actually seen pictures of it because it's one of the

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traditional foods in Ukraine, in Russia, in different parts of the Slavic world. So that's,

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but it's become so cliche and stereotypical that you almost don't mention it, but it's still

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delicious. Like I visited Ukraine, I eat that every single day, so.

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Do you, do you make it yourself? How hard is it to make?

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No, I don't know. I think to make it well, like anything, like Italians, they say, well,

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tomato sauce is easy to make, but to make it right, that's like a generational skill. So anyway,

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is there something like that in Egypt? Is there a culture of food?

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There is. And actually, we have a similar kind of soup. It's called molokhia, and it's, it's made

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of this green plant. It's like, it's somewhere between spinach and kale, and you mince it,

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and then you cook it in like chicken broth. And my grandma used to make, and my mom makes it really

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well, and I try to make it, but it's not as great. So we used to have that. And then we used to have

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it alongside stuffed pigeons. I'm pescetarian now, so I don't eat that anymore, but.

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Stuffed pigeons.

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Yeah, it's like, it was really yummy. It's the one thing I miss about,

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you know, now that I'm pescetarian and I don't eat.

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The stuffed pigeons?

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Yeah, the stuffed pigeons.

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Is it, what are they stuffed with? If that doesn't bother you too much to describe.

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No, no, it's stuffed with a lot of like just rice and, yeah, it's just rice. Yeah, so.

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And you also, you said that your first, in your book, that your first computer

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was an Atari, and Space Invaders was your favorite game.

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Is that when you first fell in love with computers, would you say?

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Yeah, I would say so.

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Video games, or just the computer itself? Just something about the machine.

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Ooh, this thing, there's magic in here.

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Yeah, I think the magical moment is definitely like playing video games with my,

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I have two younger sisters, and we would just like had fun together, like playing games.

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But the other memory I have is my first code, the first code I wrote.

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I wrote, I drew a Christmas tree, and I'm Muslim, right?

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So it's kind of, it was kind of funny that the first thing I did was like this Christmas tree.

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So, yeah, and that's when I realized, wow, you can write code to do all sorts of like

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really cool stuff. I must have been like six or seven at the time.

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So you can write programs, and the programs do stuff for you. That's power.

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That's, if you think about it, that's empowering.

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It's AI.

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Yeah, I know what it is. I don't know if that, you see like,

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I don't know if many people think of it that way when they first learned to program.

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They just love the puzzle of it. Like, ooh, this is cool. This is pretty.

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It's a Christmas tree, but like, it's power.

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It is power.

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Eventually, I guess you couldn't at the time, but eventually this thing,

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if it's interesting enough, if it's a pretty enough Christmas tree,

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it can be run by millions of people and bring them joy, like that little thing.

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And then because it's digital, it's easy to spread.

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So like you just created something that's easily spreadable to millions of people.

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Totally.

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It's hard to think that way when you're six.

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In the book, you write, I am who I am because I was raised by a particular set of parents,

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both modern and conservative, forward thinking, yet locked in tradition.

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I'm a Muslim and I feel I'm stronger, more centered for it.

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I adhere to the values of my religion, even if I'm not as dutiful as I once was.

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And I am a new American and I'm thriving on the energy,

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vitality and entrepreneurial spirit of this great country.

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So let me ask you about your parents.

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What have you learned about life from them, especially when you were young?

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So both my parents, they're Egyptian, but they moved to Kuwait right out.

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Actually, there's a cute story about how they met.

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So my dad taught COBOL in the 70s.

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Nice.

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And my mom decided to learn programming.

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So she signed up to take his COBOL programming class.

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And he tried to date her and she was like, no, no, no, I don't date.

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And so he's like, okay, I'll propose.

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And that's how they got married.

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Whoa, strong move.

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Right, exactly, right.

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That's really impressive.

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Those COBOL guys know how to impress a lady.

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So yeah, so what have you learned from them?

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So definitely grit.

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One of the core values in our family is just hard work.

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There were no slackers in our family.

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And that's something that's definitely stayed with me,

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both as a professional, but also in my personal life.