there's a broader question here, right? As we build socially and emotionally intelligent machines,
what does that mean about our relationship with them and then more broadly our relationship with
one another, right? Because this machine is going to be programmed to be amazing at empathy,
by definition, right? It's going to always be there for you. It's not going to get bored.
I don't know how I feel about that. I think about that a lot.
TITO The following is a conversation with Rana
L. Kliubi, a pioneer in the field of emotion recognition and human centric artificial
intelligence. She is the founder of Effectiva, deputy CEO of SmartEye, author of Girl Decoded,
and one of the most brilliant, kind, inspiring, and fun human beings I've gotten the chance to
talk to. This is the Lex Friedman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in
the description. And now, dear friends, here's Rana L. Kliubi. You grew up in the Middle East,
in Egypt. What is the memory from that time that makes you smile? Or maybe a memory that stands out
as helping your mind take shape and helping you define yourself in this world?
RANA L. KLIUBI So the memory that stands out is we used to
live in my grandma's house. She used to have these mango trees in her garden. And in the summer,
and so mango season was like July and August. And so in the summer, she would invite all my aunts
and uncles and cousins. And it was just like maybe there were like 20 or 30 people in the house,
and she would cook all this amazing food. And us, the kids, we would go down the garden,
and we would pick all these mangoes. And I don't know, I think it's just the bringing people
together that always stuck with me, the warmth. TITO Around the mango tree.
RANA L. KLIUBI Yeah, around the mango tree. And there's just like the joy, the joy of being
together around food. And I'm a terrible cook. So I guess that didn't, that memory didn't translate
to me kind of doing the same. I love hosting people. TITO Do you remember colors, smells?
Is that what, like what, how does memory work? Like what do you visualize? Do you visualize
people's faces, smiles? Do you, is there colors? Is there like a theme to the colors? Is it smells
because of food involved? RANA L. KLIUBI Yeah, I think that's a great question. So the,
those Egyptian mangoes, there's a particular type that I love, and it's called Darwasi mangoes. And
they're kind of, you know, they're oval, and they have a little red in them. So I kind of,
they're red and mango colored on the outside. So I remember that. TITO Does red indicate like
extra sweetness? Is that, is that, that means like it's nicely, yeah, it's nice and ripe and stuff.
Yeah. What, what's like a definitive food of Egypt? You know, there's like these almost
stereotypical foods in different parts of the world, like Ukraine invented borscht.
Borscht is this beet soup with, that you put sour cream on. See, it's not, I can't see if you,
if you know, if you know what it is, I think, you know, is delicious. But if I explain it,
it's just not going to sound delicious. I feel like beet soup. This doesn't make any sense,
but that's kind of, and you probably have actually seen pictures of it because it's one of the
traditional foods in Ukraine, in Russia, in different parts of the Slavic world. So that's,
but it's become so cliche and stereotypical that you almost don't mention it, but it's still
delicious. Like I visited Ukraine, I eat that every single day, so.
Do you, do you make it yourself? How hard is it to make?
No, I don't know. I think to make it well, like anything, like Italians, they say, well,
tomato sauce is easy to make, but to make it right, that's like a generational skill. So anyway,
is there something like that in Egypt? Is there a culture of food?
There is. And actually, we have a similar kind of soup. It's called molokhia, and it's, it's made
of this green plant. It's like, it's somewhere between spinach and kale, and you mince it,
and then you cook it in like chicken broth. And my grandma used to make, and my mom makes it really
well, and I try to make it, but it's not as great. So we used to have that. And then we used to have
it alongside stuffed pigeons. I'm pescetarian now, so I don't eat that anymore, but.
Stuffed pigeons.
Yeah, it's like, it was really yummy. It's the one thing I miss about,
you know, now that I'm pescetarian and I don't eat.
The stuffed pigeons?
Yeah, the stuffed pigeons.
Is it, what are they stuffed with? If that doesn't bother you too much to describe.
No, no, it's stuffed with a lot of like just rice and, yeah, it's just rice. Yeah, so.
And you also, you said that your first, in your book, that your first computer
was an Atari, and Space Invaders was your favorite game.
Is that when you first fell in love with computers, would you say?
Yeah, I would say so.
Video games, or just the computer itself? Just something about the machine.
Ooh, this thing, there's magic in here.
Yeah, I think the magical moment is definitely like playing video games with my,
I have two younger sisters, and we would just like had fun together, like playing games.
But the other memory I have is my first code, the first code I wrote.
I wrote, I drew a Christmas tree, and I'm Muslim, right?
So it's kind of, it was kind of funny that the first thing I did was like this Christmas tree.
So, yeah, and that's when I realized, wow, you can write code to do all sorts of like
really cool stuff. I must have been like six or seven at the time.
So you can write programs, and the programs do stuff for you. That's power.
That's, if you think about it, that's empowering.
It's AI.
Yeah, I know what it is. I don't know if that, you see like,
I don't know if many people think of it that way when they first learned to program.
They just love the puzzle of it. Like, ooh, this is cool. This is pretty.
It's a Christmas tree, but like, it's power.
It is power.
Eventually, I guess you couldn't at the time, but eventually this thing,
if it's interesting enough, if it's a pretty enough Christmas tree,
it can be run by millions of people and bring them joy, like that little thing.
And then because it's digital, it's easy to spread.
So like you just created something that's easily spreadable to millions of people.
Totally.
It's hard to think that way when you're six.
In the book, you write, I am who I am because I was raised by a particular set of parents,
both modern and conservative, forward thinking, yet locked in tradition.
I'm a Muslim and I feel I'm stronger, more centered for it.
I adhere to the values of my religion, even if I'm not as dutiful as I once was.
And I am a new American and I'm thriving on the energy,
vitality and entrepreneurial spirit of this great country.
So let me ask you about your parents.
What have you learned about life from them, especially when you were young?
So both my parents, they're Egyptian, but they moved to Kuwait right out.
Actually, there's a cute story about how they met.
So my dad taught COBOL in the 70s.
Nice.
And my mom decided to learn programming.
So she signed up to take his COBOL programming class.
And he tried to date her and she was like, no, no, no, I don't date.
And so he's like, okay, I'll propose.
And that's how they got married.
Whoa, strong move.
Right, exactly, right.
That's really impressive.
Those COBOL guys know how to impress a lady.
So yeah, so what have you learned from them?
So definitely grit.
One of the core values in our family is just hard work.
There were no slackers in our family.
And that's something that's definitely stayed with me,
both as a professional, but also in my personal life.